Rabid Foaming (![[info]](http://www.insanejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small} bofoddity) wrote,@ 2007-10-17 12:46:00 |
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Some significant stuff:
em_h: As a semi-professional Christian, I feel like I need to say something to some of my co-religionists out there. What I need to say is, Eat it, dudes.
kali921: Turning around and accusing people who read your words differently than you intend as being "oversensitive" is simply not, in my mind, a defensible moral or intellectual position.
bad_goth: HOWEVER, when you react to their objection with something along the lines of "stop your whining, entitlement-Jew! EVERYONE LOVES CHRISTMAS!" then you're probably an anti-Semite, and you need to accept that you're full of failure and bigotry.
elishavah: But everyone else who lives in the same world we do needs to help make sure that when we do try, we're not beat down for it. Because we can get somewhere on our own, but nowhere near as far as we could with some assistance or, at the very, very least, some acknowledgement that what we're saying is worthy of attention.
lenadances: If you or I are in the majority of a group, whether by race, or by religion, or by gender, or by sexual orientation, we must remember that by virtue of that status we're like a rich kid on the playground who comes equipped with his or her own gigantic personal bodyguard.
untrue_accounts: Do I have to explain what's wrong with this? Do I really have to explain what's so insulting about someone not just saying that Jewish holidays aren't well-known in the West, but implying that they're not worth knowing? Do I have to explain why it's exoticizing and insulting and just generally not okay to make fun of the name of Jewish holidays, or to take a holiday name and turn it into a sexual slur/insult? Do I really, really, really have to explain why someone saying "Suck it" instead of "Sukkot" isn't being a great big silly, he's being an asshole, and so is the person quoting this with approval?
kita0610: The correct response (once more, for all those who missed it in the last round of Minorities in Fandom, They Exist!) to "this thing going on here marginilizes me and kind of makes me feel icky, maybe next time can we do it differently?" is NOT: ZOMG WE ARE NOT RACIST YOU ARE OVERSENSITIVE AND ALSO YOU HAVE STUPID HAIR!
chopchica: Because the fact of the matter is, as long as Sesas will continue to revolve around Christmas, there’s going to be this kind of reaction from a small minority of fandom. We’re not enough of a presence to ask for and honestly expect change, but it would be nice to have people take us seriously when we explain just what rubs us wrong about the way fandom demands we ignore the basic nature of these exchanges.
rydra_wong: Dear fandom:
Regardless of the original issue, when your response is to rant about those crazy oversensitive minorities with chips on their shoulders who are just looking for something to be offended by in order to guilt-trip you and harsh your squee --
Still not cool, kthnx.
popfantastic: As these principles clearly demonstrate, I am never responsible for saying anything which might be construed as insensitive or offensive, no matter how many times I have said the same thing before and been told it might be construed as insensitive or offensive. Hysterical accusations of offense-giving must be properly contained with reassurances that it's not my job to worry about the offendee and explanations that it is, in fact, the offendee's failure to understand that I was prevented by the offendee's own anger from understanding him, her, or hir and that I can neither apologize nor take steps to prevent offense in the future which demonstrates unfathomable insensitivity to my needs. As all of my friends -- including the black one -- will tell you, I'm a highly tolerant person. Obviously, the fault lies elsewhere.
vaznetti: I understand that fear -- I mean, hey, it is my own fear! -- and at least in my part, it's based in distrust: my distrust of you, a group of people I know well and like very much. And you know, I don't want to distrust you. I don't want to feel like I can't speak my mind, or say that something makes me feel uncomfortable or excluded. I don't want to worry about what will happen if I seem too Jewish. I'm not too Jewish. I'm Jewish.
skywardprodigal: "Hey, I feel left out. Maybe I've got a reason?" Is not an attack.
vylit: But the point isn't Yuletide or Secret Santa fics as much as it's the reaction that people had. It's the default of 'if other people don't agree or are offended, they are being oversensitive, blowing things out of proportion, playing the X card, being a martyr, they should just not participate, or my personal favorite make your own damn ficathon and shut up about this one; you're not allowed to have a opinion.'
the_jackalope: So sometimes fandom really, really stinks. How many times do we have to go over the same idea over and over again? If someone from a minority group says that something is a bit off, the correct response is not to call that person names, but to listen and acknowledge what they area saying. I mean how hard is it to be a decent human being?
fox1013: There is something very excluding for me about being non-Christian at Christmastime. There's really no way around that. And there are a few ways to deal with that. One is by working to avoid anything Christmas-related, which is hard and it hurts. Another is to embrace the holiday completely, which hurts in a different way.
mayatawi: Christmas is simply the most common, easily accessible frame of reference for a holiday-based fic exchange. Yuletide is a Christmas fic exchange; that doesn't mean it's a Christian fic exchange. I've come to consider-- rightly or wrongly-- Christmas in the same light as many people consider marriage nowadays, in the midst of the gay marriage debate. For some people, marriage is a strictly religious issue; for others it's strictly secular; and for still others, it's a mixture of the two. I don't see why both concepts can't coexist, or maybe it's better to say why they shouldn't coexist. Some people are going to embrace the religious aspect of the holidays. Some are just going to take it as an excuse to give and receive shiny things.
Summary of these posts:
"Ew, my privilege has minority cooties!" = Not the acceptable way to deal.
Some significant stuff:
em_h: As a semi-professional Christian, I feel like I need to say something to some of my co-religionists out there. What I need to say is, Eat it, dudes.kali921: Turning around and accusing people who read your words differently than you intend as being "oversensitive" is simply not, in my mind, a defensible moral or intellectual position.bad_goth: HOWEVER, when you react to their objection with something along the lines of "stop your whining, entitlement-Jew! EVERYONE LOVES CHRISTMAS!" then you're probably an anti-Semite, and you need to accept that you're full of failure and bigotry.elishavah: But everyone else who lives in the same world we do needs to help make sure that when we do try, we're not beat down for it. Because we can get somewhere on our own, but nowhere near as far as we could with some assistance or, at the very, very least, some acknowledgement that what we're saying is worthy of attention.lenadances: If you or I are in the majority of a group, whether by race, or by religion, or by gender, or by sexual orientation, we must remember that by virtue of that status we're like a rich kid on the playground who comes equipped with his or her own gigantic personal bodyguard.untrue_accounts: Do I have to explain what's wrong with this? Do I really have to explain what's so insulting about someone not just saying that Jewish holidays aren't well-known in the West, but implying that they're not worth knowing? Do I have to explain why it's exoticizing and insulting and just generally not okay to make fun of the name of Jewish holidays, or to take a holiday name and turn it into a sexual slur/insult? Do I really, really, really have to explain why someone saying "Suck it" instead of "Sukkot" isn't being a great big silly, he's being an asshole, and so is the person quoting this with approval?kita0610: The correct response (once more, for all those who missed it in the last round of Minorities in Fandom, They Exist!) to "this thing going on here marginilizes me and kind of makes me feel icky, maybe next time can we do it differently?" is NOT: ZOMG WE ARE NOT RACIST YOU ARE OVERSENSITIVE AND ALSO YOU HAVE STUPID HAIR!chopchica: Because the fact of the matter is, as long as Sesas will continue to revolve around Christmas, there’s going to be this kind of reaction from a small minority of fandom. We’re not enough of a presence to ask for and honestly expect change, but it would be nice to have people take us seriously when we explain just what rubs us wrong about the way fandom demands we ignore the basic nature of these exchanges.rydra_wong: Dear fandom:Regardless of the original issue, when your response is to rant about those crazy oversensitive minorities with chips on their shoulders who are just looking for something to be offended by in order to guilt-trip you and harsh your squee --
Still not cool, kthnx.
popfantastic: As these principles clearly demonstrate, I am never responsible for saying anything which might be construed as insensitive or offensive, no matter how many times I have said the same thing before and been told it might be construed as insensitive or offensive. Hysterical accusations of offense-giving must be properly contained with reassurances that it's not my job to worry about the offendee and explanations that it is, in fact, the offendee's failure to understand that I was prevented by the offendee's own anger from understanding him, her, or hir and that I can neither apologize nor take steps to prevent offense in the future which demonstrates unfathomable insensitivity to my needs. As all of my friends -- including the black one -- will tell you, I'm a highly tolerant person. Obviously, the fault lies elsewhere.vaznetti: I understand that fear -- I mean, hey, it is my own fear! -- and at least in my part, it's based in distrust: my distrust of you, a group of people I know well and like very much. And you know, I don't want to distrust you. I don't want to feel like I can't speak my mind, or say that something makes me feel uncomfortable or excluded. I don't want to worry about what will happen if I seem too Jewish. I'm not too Jewish. I'm Jewish.skywardprodigal: "Hey, I feel left out. Maybe I've got a reason?" Is not an attack.vylit: But the point isn't Yuletide or Secret Santa fics as much as it's the reaction that people had. It's the default of 'if other people don't agree or are offended, they are being oversensitive, blowing things out of proportion, playing the X card, being a martyr, they should just not participate, or my personal favorite make your own damn ficathon and shut up about this one; you're not allowed to have a opinion.'the_jackalope: So sometimes fandom really, really stinks. How many times do we have to go over the same idea over and over again? If someone from a minority group says that something is a bit off, the correct response is not to call that person names, but to listen and acknowledge what they area saying. I mean how hard is it to be a decent human being?fox1013: There is something very excluding for me about being non-Christian at Christmastime. There's really no way around that. And there are a few ways to deal with that. One is by working to avoid anything Christmas-related, which is hard and it hurts. Another is to embrace the holiday completely, which hurts in a different way.mayatawi: Christmas is simply the most common, easily accessible frame of reference for a holiday-based fic exchange. Yuletide is a Christmas fic exchange; that doesn't mean it's a Christian fic exchange. I've come to consider-- rightly or wrongly-- Christmas in the same light as many people consider marriage nowadays, in the midst of the gay marriage debate. For some people, marriage is a strictly religious issue; for others it's strictly secular; and for still others, it's a mixture of the two. I don't see why both concepts can't coexist, or maybe it's better to say why they shouldn't coexist. Some people are going to embrace the religious aspect of the holidays. Some are just going to take it as an excuse to give and receive shiny things.Summary of these posts:
"Ew, my privilege has minority cooties!" = Not the acceptable way to deal.
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